EP4 Scott and Will
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[00:00:00]

Josh: All right, Scott and Will, thank you guys so much for joining us on this podcast today. We don't often have the pleasure of talking to someone about setting up a business in Portugal. Most people are moving either with passive income or active income as a remote worker, but you guys are actually here getting involved in the local economy and meeting a lot of local people, I assume.

So let's dive into this journey. I'm really looking forward to this. What was it like in the beginning making the decision on moving to Portugal? Or were there any other countries that were involved in the mix?

Scott: We put together a whole list of countries. I'm a data guy, so I pointed out what we're our 10 15 criteria. Found as much. Comparable data between the different countries, whether it's cost of living, whether the healthcare, the crime rate L G B T, safety and Rights all those things.

The easy at opening up a business the cost of living and put them on a giant spreadsheet. And and then we just processed the numbers and then Covid hit and all the numbers started [00:01:00] bouncing around. So we bounced around on what our target was. We started out looking at Portugal.

We, we took a little bit of a journey around Europe and we ended up back at Portugal in terms of what our target country was gonna be.

Josh: Okay. What kept drawing you back to Portugal?

Scott: Partly, it was all, a lot of the same factors that all y'all are looking at Portugal for it, it's the cost of living, it's the ease of getting a visa. It's the relative, business friendly environment. The two other countries are on our shortlist were the Czech Republic and the uk.

And UK was a wild car. We didn't know what Brexit was gonna do. But in terms of opening a business, it made it really easy because it's the same the same language, and the same business law. Basically as the U.S. So it would be a lot of the stuff that we have no clue at what we need to do here.

And we have to involve lawyers. We could have done with just reading through the paperwork there. But, as we got into Covid and we saw what was happening with Brexit, UK kind dropped in ranking. Mainly because we lost the ability to [00:02:00] have the open market with the rest of Europe.

And during the process the Czech Republic, we realized it took 10 years to get permanent residency or citizenship in the Czech Republic while in, in Portugal. That's only five. So that was a big factor for us.

Josh: Okay, and we'll double back on some of the criteria that you guys laid out and really helped make your decision because I'm curious if your expectations and your realities are the same, and I think that the audience is gonna be very curious about that as well. Okay. Will,

Will: Yes.

Josh: go man. So tell us where did you guys move from?

Will: We moved here from Austin, Texas,

Josh: Okay.

Will: but also when we were in the US we moved around a lot. So we've lived in California, Los Angeles area, York. We lived in New Jersey and then before I heard that we lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Then we moved to Austin, Texas.

Josh: and was it jobs that kept you [00:03:00] bouncing around or lifestyle?

Will: First move to New York, we needed change , I wanted to go back to school for fashion design. And also Scott got over there. And after that I think we just tired of New York City is hard over there, so we, he can pretty much get a job anywhere.

Josh: Okay. Very cool. Austin's a pretty hip city and a lot of people are moving to Austin, but you guys moved out, so why was that

Will: Prices. We got price out. Yeah. Property tax is right in Austin. So as our property value goes up we can't really , afford living.

Josh: And you guys live in Porto right now, you're gonna move over to the Gaia side, but how has that been? Has Porto and Austin drawn some parallels for you, or is it just a completely different experience?[00:04:00]

Will: For me, I don't think it's. It's not the same at all. Yeah. We in terms of prices?

Josh: Just in, in general, prices, culture amenities, the vibe

Will: , I think the best part is not having a car in Porto is really not a problem. We can pretty much access places with transportation busses or metro. And that's I think and pretty diverse. And I think for me what's missing is The diversity in restaurants compared to what I'm used to in Austin, Texas.

Josh: Sure. Yeah. The culinary scene here could use a bit of work. It's definitely not on the international. Map for the culinary scene, but if you want to have local food, it's great. Some people don't have a pallet to Portuguese cuisine when they move over here, and and that can be problematic.

Have you found any problems with the local food?

Will: No, not at all. I enjoy exploring different kinda food, but I think [00:05:00] for me it's just I want the variety. I the same thing.

Josh: Yeah, no, exactly. Okay. So let's go back to the beginning a bit and talk about the application process because Scott, you were saying that, one of the criteria was , not an easy path per se, but a straightforward path. Have you all found that the process, the visa process to get here and establish a business was straightforward and easy?

Or were there some obstacles that you came across?

Scott: , there were many steps but they were clearly delineated. We didn't have any gotchas along the way. The steps were we just, we followed the plan. We took the course on. On Expect Everywhere. We use that as our roadmap and that helped us get us over here and deal with the logistics getting our niche and getting our bank account and all those things that we needed to adjust to qualify for the Visa.

We put in our Visa application, I think we were approved in nine days which was phenomenal. And. And then as soon as we got here we found a business attorney to help us go through the steps in the [00:06:00] process of opening up a business. We had read online what the steps were, but there was a lot of guidance saying that you're gonna need an attorney for that process.

You can't just do it yourself.

Josh: Okay. And did you both start out on the D7.

Will: Yes.

Josh: Okay, so you started out on the D7, and then once you got here, that's when you decided to establish the business.

Scott: yes.

Josh: Okay. And how much was the lawyer to help you with all the filings and forms?

Scott: Oh we probably spent. I'd say around one to 2000 euros. Some of that was the lawyer fees and some of that was just the fees for the government forms and things like that. And a little of that is

Josh: Registrations, licenses, that type of thing.

Scott: And a little that's kind of mingled with our own legal process. We used the same lawyer.

Until we had a business entity, it was all out of our account. Not the business.

Josh: Okay, so it sounds like it's actually pretty low barrier of entry financially as well.

Will: I think to start the business is really it's pretty. [00:07:00] Low cost and it's pretty easy to process itself.

Josh: And do you have any employees?

Will: Yes. I have one employee who works with me fulltime, and then one freelance.

Josh: Okay. And are the wages good? Do you feel like you're able to run a successful cash flowing business

Will: the wage is

Josh: challenging as well?

Will: It's tricky because, When we came here, when we started the business, the idea is to help the economy. Local economy means also providing for our employees. So minimum wage, Portugal is really low compared to European country. So we decided to pay more than minimum wage. Yeah, that's what we do. Right now we're still negative in terms of profit. .

Josh: And how do you feel you've been received by the local community being a foreigner that's opened up a buisiness?

Will: I think people like it. I've met a lot of people in the industry in Porto, in the fashion industry. [00:08:00] They love the concept, they love the idea. So I think people who understand the concept and the business. They love that we're starting something different than what they already have.

And it's pretty well received.

Scott: But different. Can be a bit of a challenge for the consumers and the consumer traffic, the foot traffic into the store has been much lower than we had hoped and that's something that we are trying to pivot on .

How do we attract local consumers? How do we make our our voice resonate in a way that's meaningful? The things that we would do in the United States for a retail establishment maybe aren't the right things to be doing here. And finding that guidance is tricky.

We haven't found someone who said, oh, you, need to put this sign in your window and you need to advertise in this newspaper and that'll help you a hundred percent. We thought we were getting good coverage. We we even had the local , CNN affiliate do a little piece on this, on the new in town piece.

And we got a lot of traction on our website right after that. But then it didn't turn into foot. And maybe, we did something fundamentally wrong, either the location [00:09:00] or the marketing, but we'd love to figure out how to correct that. Because everyone who does engage with the business locals particularly , they love the concept.

It's just getting people in the door that's difficult.

Josh: Okay I guess we've danced around it enough. What do you guys do? What is this business?

Will: Okay. So it's a. I think it's a hybrid of styling studio. When I say styling studio, it's not for hair, it's not for makeup, but it's for wardrobe, for clothing My background is in fashion design also fashion style wardrobe ,

and pretty much like the show not to wear on TLC a long time ago. . So it's a hybrid of styling studio where people can come and style them in doing consultation. And also we reselling fashion.

Josh: Okay, so you know, a couple months back, my wife and I visited W.O.W.. And there's an experience at W.O.W., which is a world of wine. However, it's not all about wine. There are different experiences there. And one of the museum [00:10:00] experiences is about Porto's history in fashion. And it goes through not just the manufacturing side, but some of the other ways that the city has influenced Portugal and Europe in general.

Have you guys found Porto to be a fashionable city or is that something that you feel like it's lacking?

Will: It's

Josh: It.

Will: be honest. It's but you, I found that there are, in Port the city itself, there are a lot of concept store here and there. I think people are trying, but I think In terms of like the fashion scene, it's just, I think it's not as big as Lisbon in Portugal,

Josh: Right.

Will: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. Capital cities tend to be drivers.

Will: And, but Porto has fashion week on its own a year I guess it's trying, . Portugal as a small country to have two fashion week one in and one in Porto. It's pretty [00:11:00] impressive.

Josh: As far as getting to know locals, and what I mean is like other local business owners vendors, suppliers, that type of thing. Are you finding it difficult being an outsider or are they welcoming in that respect as well?

Will: I guess it depends for me people who. In terms of vendor, for me, my challenge is the language itself. That's not everyone speaks English and I still don't speak portugese enough to have that kinda conversation about business stuff.

Josh: Technical industry kind of jargon that you have to use. Yeah, absolutely.

Will: But terms of, People that I met in the industry, it's just mostly like the designers.

It's very well received from that part.

Josh: Okay. What are you all doing to improve your Portuguese study? Learn and improve your Portuguese.

Will: We took classes when we first got here and which is the government. [00:12:00] Classes. But after that COVID happened again. Classes got canceled, ready to start and we never called back. And then we busy with the business. So we haven't back into it. The plan is for us to get back to classes after we move to our house, so trying to figure out what classes,

Josh: so you arrived here you got started with learning language and this was all before you opened up your doors, right? Okay. Great. I commend you definitely for giving it a go. Even Portuguese people say that Portuguese is a difficult language. I do find it challenging.

It's not something that people can't wrap their heads around. I hope that people, when they move over here, they try because, like you said it, it can definitely make it a better experience if you know the language, if you're able to work with people, whether it's on the business side or personal side being able to understand the culture better through the language.

Will: Definitely.

Scott: One of the things that really helps is being forced to use Portuguese. We're remodeling a house, the [00:13:00] house in Gaia, and the contractors or the subcontractors that are there, most of them only speak Portuguese. When I go there, and I'm trying to communicate something, or they're trying to ask me a question, we either fumble through the translation apps, but we try and at least first find the right words to communicate, even if it's really broken English and really broken Portuguese.

And I've found that process. Just stumbling through the errors. So much better than just listening to an audible book on Portuguese and trying to understand the language and trying to just retain it forcing yourself to use it And that's a need, it's a necessity.

I want the thing to be done, what they're asking, I wanna understand their question. I want the, to communicate what my desire is with the house or what they're working on. So it, it's a real necessity and and that, and delivery people, cuz they will always call when you don't expect them to call and.

They're always somewhat angry and and they're asking you questions about your address or the color of your building or something like that. And it often produces a lot of anxiety in me cuz I'm, I [00:14:00] don't want my delivery to go away. I want it to come to me.

Josh: There, there's a couple types of deliveries people can get. There's and probably two of the most common would be when you're setting up the house whether it's a, an apartment that you're renting that's unfurnished, or a house that you've bought, an apartment that you've bought and you're needing to bring furniture in.

There's, there are those calls that you can receive, right? And oftentimes you're scheduling delivery between 12 and two and you never get the call and you're sitting around what's happening here? And then you get it at five 30 and you. So thrown off guard and you don't even realize who's actually calling you, right?

Because it's so out of the window of time. Then there's the other one, which is I don't know if you all order groceries online, but you can order groceries online and have them delivered to your house, or even like Uber Eats or one of those services. But when they call it's kind. It's great because you do have these set questions that you always get asked.

So you know, you start to build a vocabulary, like you, you can predict what's gonna be said and you build that vocabulary through repetition. So I [00:15:00] totally resonate with what you're saying, Scott. That's fantastic.

Scott: And just forcing yourself through it. A couple weeks ago they were getting some appliances delivered to the house. They came on the wrong day. Just to be safe, I was working at a co-working spot about a 10 minute walk to the house.

It's pouring rain outside. And I'm trying to communicate to them that there are workers in the house, but the doorbell doesn't work. Just go to the house and someone will let you in. And then I just start running in the rain to get there, to make sure that all of this happens. And I get there and they're unloading the appliances and putting 'em in the house.

And it's ah, I guess I said the right words.

Josh: Oh, that's epic. Okay. Awesome. Let's talk a little bit about ownership because it sounds like you've bought a house. Is that right?

Scott: yes.

Josh: Did you buy your space for your business or are you leasing that?

Scott: That's being leased.

Josh: Okay, so let's move towards the buying side. What was that process like for you all?

Scott: The buying side, there were a couple pain points but they weren't the pain points we expected. For us it was fairly straightforward to get a mortgage here in Portugal. And we had [00:16:00] 20% down on our mortgage. So I know folks have said, oh, you need to put 30, 50% down just to be considered.

I think what helped for us is before we even moved here we started a relationship with a banker at Millennium Bank. It doesn't have to be Millennium Bank. Millennium Bank has. Had some problems with their computers and things gotten delayed. But having that good relationship with the banker whatever bank that's at has been tremendous cuz it seems like the individual bankers have a lot more discretion over getting mortgages processed and getting insurance and all of those things.

Then than in the United States. The United States, it just goes to some giant underwriting computer in the back room. This. Personal relationship is really.

Josh: Yeah. One thing that we've noticed is we work with a mortgage broker and that mortgage broker's relationship with other banks and other banker. Can be make or break, and the great thing about a mortgage broker is that they're gonna shop different rates for you. And we have seen, like you said some banks will say to a foreigner, like a, or a couple, we'll, we will [00:17:00] do 70%.

Others will say we need 50% down. And then for the same couple or the same individual, another bank will say, yeah, 20% down is. So it's great to have somebody that can shop that for you, but like you said relationships are super crucial here. Especially when you want to get things done. How long did the process to purchase a house take?

Scott: It's almost been a year in this process. So we found the house in January of last year. We found it looking on Idealista and we went there, we scheduled a visit with our realtor, and that went well. And we decided that we wanna move forward.

Josh: can you tell us the name of the realtor that you used and what company they work

for?

Scott: Yeah. Our realtor uh, her Fabiola uh, and she's with Remax in Matosinhos.

Josh: Okay, and how did you find her?

Scott: How did we find her

Will: Facebook group

Porto Expats.

Josh: Okay,

Scott: And so we started the [00:18:00] process with Millennium Bank to get the, what do we need to do to move forward?

And then we went through the process of getting the purchase a. then everything slowed down. It was a, the house was an inheritance, so there were four siblings and their spouses and that, that owned the house. And just for Millennium Bank to go through all of that inheritance checking and verification of documents, we had to get the acceptance letter and the rates reset twice because it expired in millennium's timeline and it was on millennium.

So the rate went up a little bit during the whole process. And so it wasn't until May, I think that we finally closed on the house end of May, and then we started working with our contractor. We got a construction loan or remodeling loan through Millennium as well.

And then we started work on the house in August. The fastest part was working with our contractor. . They've been extremely reliable. They've they've gone above on so many things in terms of getting stuff done. Communication's been pretty good. They there's a [00:19:00] little bit of a language gap between the two of us that we seem to be able to communicate really well.

Will: The name of the contractor that we use is Cabral & Lampert. They are husband and wife team.

Scott: But they they just go above and beyond on everything that they're doing, and I've been really impressed. I've heard nightmares from other people where they get into a remodel and two years later they're still in that same remodel. And thi this we were hoping to finish in December.

Looks like some things are gonna fall over to January just because of supply issues. Some of the things their suppliers are running slopes, the holidays, something's broken transit, and we, they have to reorder. They're pretty close to our initial deadline. I was really happy with that process.

Josh: Awesome. Congratulations. How did you find this this contractor?

Will: From our Realtor. So she recommended, this two so we actually interviewed them. We also interviewed two other contractors so finding the contractor is a key. When they see as a foreigner, they can take advantage of it.

When we set a budget this is our budget that we, [00:20:00] for the renovation the first contractor that came to see us I think he went, almost doubled the budget.

Scott: More than double. It was like

two and a

half times.

Will: yeah,

Josh: and how big was the scope of work that you needed done? Like a complete remodel with plumbing, electrical, and everything? Or was it more surfacey things?

Scott: A little bit of both. So it it was the house ha had originally had the primary floor, the living room, kitchen, dining room sitting room, foyer, all separate rooms. And you wanna be able to see the kitchen from the front door and the whole room was open.

So there was a lot of demolition, interiorly on the front door, just taking down walls. We didn't touch the exterior and we told 'em to use as much of the existing plumbing and electrical as possible. The house is about 45 years old. They said the electrical's in good shape. So we just went through that process. It's a larger house than we originally intended. And this is one of the things that I guess if we roll back the process a little bit and we wanna touch on this. When we looked at properties, the property prices and what you got for those properties were all over the place.

In terms of the price per square foot. So location [00:21:00] matters. And that's one of the reasons we chose Gaia. We got a lot more per square foot. So for our budget for our price point that we were looking for, we were looking at things that were about 80 to 90 square meters. In Porto, which is 800 900 square feet.

And in, in Gaia we found a property that was 320 square meters.

Josh: Yeah. And certainly the time that you bought as well. It was better. Now the gap's starting to close, but yeah. That's awesome. What's the name of the contractor?

Will: Anda and Marlon Lambert.

Josh: Okay we'll

put that in the show notes for people so they can yeah, they can reach out to the contractor.

Scott: Yeah, so the, the house was larger than we had anticipated. So we're only remodeling two of the floors. It's three floors and a basement.

And the first floor is a garage. We're gonna decide what we wanna do with that space later, if it's feasible and we can do it. We get all the approval for it. We might turn the first floor into an a. And rent that out. We have, we generate a little bit of income off our property.

That's our hope. [00:22:00] But we don't know, again, we don't know what the the legal process is for that to divide a single family home into two residences that might be an administrative process that we're not familiar with. And so we targeted the space that we needed to use within the house and that's what we did for the remodel.

But then inside, All new fixtures, all new kitchen new flooring redo the walls. So , in that case the remodel was rather extensive.

Josh: Okay. Talking a bit about money, you guys had a perception of Portugal and Porto being cheap. Has it met your expectations or what's the reality been like?

Will: I think when we first moved here, everything seems very cheap, but. After we live here , we consider ourselves as a local.

Think things are catching up. Right now, I restaurant spend

euro.

Josh: Sure.

Will: You can get a full meal here for lunch for like under sometimes, right? Yeah. So that's, I can, I. In, in terms of food restaurants if you go to local restaurants, [00:23:00] yes, they're cheap compared to what we used to, but if you to more international restaurants, they actually cheap.

Josh: Okay, so fairly on par with what you would spend for a meal in the United States or in Austin to keep it more local.

Scott: of what we would've spent in Austin maybe , pre pandemic. I think the prices for food have gone up also in the United States. It just, it, they got gone up globally.

Josh: And have you noticed inflation in Portugal?

Scott: Yeah, we've noticed it in, yeah, in food prices. And and because the, because of the relationship with the euro to the dollar some of the things that you import have gotten expenses more expensive as well.

Josh: Yeah. , that's totally true. And I think that's something that maybe a lot of people forget about especially bringing a remote job over to Europe while you're still making the dollar. That exchange rate can definitely impact actually how much you're making on the ground. A few months back when it was on par or the dollar was actually a little stronger than the [00:24:00] Euro.

Wow. We were. But now it's quite different. So tell me a about the, some of the other costs that you guys have. Like how much are utilities running? What are transportation costs that you all are incurring? Is do those fall in line with what you had expected or are those more expensive or cheaper?

Scott: Utilities are lower than we expected. We had the understanding that, wow, utilities are expensive in Europe. That's why. People are a little bit more conservative with air conditioning and heat and things like that. And we've found that generally the utilities have been less for, based on what we consume than we paid in the United States. And what was the other criteria you'd ask?

Will: Transportation.

Scott: Yeah. We both get the monthly ante card through through S T C P . And so that gives us access to Metro Buses Regional Rail, and that's a fixed price for us. That's 40 euros each.

Josh: And it's unlimited rides per day. Great. And what zone does that cover? Zone one, two.

Will: I get the furthest one from all the way [00:25:00] from down, from Espino all the way up to.

Josh: Okay. Awesome.

Scott: are two prices here. There's there's the 30 euro a month card, which does give you, restrict you to certain zones. And and then the 40 euro month gives you all the zones plus the regional rail.

Josh: Okay. Do you find yourself using it a lot to travel the country?

Scott: Yeah, we've used it half a dozen times at least to go outside of the Porto area.

Josh: What's your favorite thing about living in Portugal?

Scott: I guess it's somewhat intangible, but the best way I can describe it is that you there's a certain cultural anxiety in United States and moving here seem to just dissipate that all of the things that were kind of triggers on social media and in the news.

And locally and things like that just don't seem to be as loud here from , the ones that are from the United States, they just don't seem to be as life impacting as they are, for us, because we're no longer there [00:26:00] and they don't they don't impact our day-to-day anxiety level that we were experiencing before We.

Josh: Okay, will, how?

Will: For me, it's the sense of safety. I can go out at night and walk around and, yes, I'm being cautious, but also, but I know that's won't get murdered. , that kinda thing. That, yeah, like even in the middle of the night, I still walk home by myself and I feel OK with it. No one is staring at me. No one is trying to target me.

Josh: Okay. One of your criteria that you all talked about was openness for the L G B T community. How do you feel the adaptation has been here? Do you feel welcome in that regard?

Will: Yeah, so everyone I've met so has no problem with it. like I said earlier I don't feel like I'm being targeted or anything and people have been fine with [00:27:00] the way I am right now.

Scott: One of the small differences that we find here is we'll go into a restaurant. Or we'll go somewhere, but particularly in restaurants in the United States , quite a few number of times people would say, oh, do you want separate checks? Cuz they see two men sitting at a restaurant.

And very rarely do we get that here. They just assume we're a couple. And that mindset shift that makes it feel so much more welcoming for.

Josh: Okay. Yeah, I would say in a larger way you go out with six people and they'll give you one check. Like you have to really put your foot down about getting it divided up. But also, what we've started to do culturally is I think something that Portuguese do as well, which is just, you just average it out and everybody throws money in just regardless of.

Each person ordered. Have you guys experienced that going out with friends? Have you adapted to that and noticed that to be a.

Will: Yeah. Sometimes if we go out with friends usually we pay what we order, but. Not a big deal, [00:28:00] like just divide it, split it up evenly, and that's just the way it's here. I guess it depends on who are you going out with.

Scott: And it's pretty convenient here with if the they come to your table with the credit card machine. There's no dance where you give them the credit card, they come with a tray, you sign the paper, you go back the whole thing In the United States here, they come with the credit card machine to your table.

So if you just wanna pay 25, you pay 25. And the next person and he goes around the table and everyone pays.

Will: And when you go to restaurants, it's like the number. On the menu. It's the number that you pay the prices you don't have

s and then, so that's

Josh: Yeah. Speaking of tips, tip culture, do you guys still tip?

Will: depends.

Josh: Okay.

Will: When we do, it's not gonna be as high as what we did in the us. It's not gonna be like, So it's just it's more like a gesture, a symbol, that kinda thing.

Yeah.[00:29:00]

Josh: Okay. Nice. To have a dad joke in here. Speaking of tips, do you have any tips for our listeners on how to adapt more smoothly to Portugal?

Will: I think learn the language first as much as you can. Before you get there, I know

speak.

Scott: That there, there are a lot of people here that they know English, they can speak it, but they're English shy. If we're learning Portuguese, we might be Portuguese shy. So until you get to know them to have some level of comfort they're gonna be really uncomfortable using English.

And we're gonna be really uncomfortable using Portuguese. He is gotta break through that. And just put it out there and try and fumble through translators and find a way to find a way to communicate.

Josh: Awesome. Could you tell us where your business. And what the name of it is

Will: The name of the business is House of Owls. It's located in Foz, Foz is a neighborhood by the beach.

Josh: that is known for being fashionable and trendy and wealthy.

Will: I dunno about fashion and trendy, no. Wealthy, [00:30:00] yes, but not always the case because yes, there are like multimillion euros.

Josh: Yep.

Will: The gap is pretty, so it's not always, yeah, it's not always wealthy.

Josh: No. Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. Kaylee and I have a YouTube video where we go to Foz and go through Foz Valley.

question, guys. You ready? At expats everywhere, we believe that living abroad transforms lives. How has living abroad transformed your life?

Scott: on this a little bit earlier in, in, in terms of getting away from, the, cultural stress that we had in the United States. But also it, being in a, a new environment where you have to relearn a lot of things from just the geography of where do you get your groceries and what are the processes for doing things and what's the cultural differences to learning a whole new language and making new friends.

I think that is uh, rejuvenating. you to use parts of your brain and to uh, and to be connected to other people that uh, a lot of, a little bit during the covid years. We, we, [00:31:00] in our houses and we, hid behind uh, and, really interact with other people.

And it, it forces us out of that.

Will: And for me, I think it makes me more independent in terms of I'm, more independent and more social. I become more social

everywhere,

even more just in, your little bubble driving a car everywhere. So yeah, that's for me. It's like, making me more social and just more open to any other possibilities

Josh: Will and Scott, thank you guys so much for joining us today on the Let's Move to Portugal podcast. You guys have been awesome sharing your experience here, moving here and setting up a business here, which I think should help a good number of people who want to do the same.

I think moving here first and then getting the business started sounds like a pretty straightforward and simple way to do it. So thanks for sharing that tip with.

Scott: Oh our pleasure.

Will: thanks for having us.

Josh: Take care,