Producer Dan: 01:28

Hello, and welcome, my emerging expat. You're tuned in to let's move to Portugal. I'm producer Dan, and I have the distinct honor of bringing you YouTube Travelers and our resident Portugal experts, expats everywhere's Josh and Caitlin. Each week, they'll inspire, they'll educate, and they'll accompany you on your journey to Portuguese residents. This week on let's move to Portugal, we delve into the evolving landscape of Spain's Golden Visa Program, comparing it with recent changes in Portugal's visa strategy and exploring the broader economic implications.

Producer Dan: 02:02

Join Josh as he unravels the complexities with expert insights from Sam Dane to Fulburn Assets.

Josh: 02:21

What is up expats and travelers alike? Welcome back to the Expats Everywhere podcast. Let's move to Portugal. Kalie, how we doing?

Kalie: 02:30

I'm doing well. Actually, really well because I went to the dentist today.

Sam: 02:34

Okay.

Kalie: 02:34

And I actually like the dentist. I know some people do not like the dentist. I didn't get a teeth cleaning or anything. I'm going through checking out what's going on with my jaw and with my teeth and everything. And so I've been going to MALO Clinic, which is a really great clinic.

Kalie: 02:48

They've got branches all over Portugal, and I've been really impressed with them. So, essentially, I ended up chipping my tooth with my other tooth. Long story short.

Josh: 02:58

Allow my tooth to chip my other tooth.

Kalie: 03:01

Crazy, because over time I mean, I had braces when I was younger, but over time my teeth have shifted

Sam: 03:06

Yep.

Kalie: 03:07

A little bit. And so now we're trying to fix that. But while doing that, you know, I've known that I've had, like, a popping jaw for a while. It's been, like, 20 years. Yeah.

Kalie: 03:15

So we're gonna try to correct that so it doesn't get any worse. So they've got a great plan for me. So I'm I'm pretty excited about that. It's it's the long play, though. It's like a marathon.

Sam: 03:23

It will.

Josh: 03:23

Yeah. It is.

Kalie: 03:24

He's, like, strapped in for, you know, a couple years, and I'm like, oh gosh.

Josh: 03:27

Years. Oh, Jesus.

Kalie: 03:28

Yeah. Because we've got a it's a slow process to to get my jaw right before we start the orthodontic side of things.

Josh: 03:34

Right.

Kalie: 03:35

Well, they're gonna do it together, but it's interesting. Quite interesting. I'll vlog about it. I'll put it in our newsletter, maybe some on social media. But Mala Clinic, they're doing a great job.

Josh: 03:44

Cool. Well, if you're a kid from the eighties or nineties, raise your hands. If you had braces

Kalie: 03:48

Yeah. The metal stuff. So thankfully, they've, come a long way with with clear things. So I don't have one now.

Josh: 03:55

Yeah. It's less watching. It's less disruptive, I think, to adult life anyways.

Kalie: 04:00

Definitely.

Josh: 04:01

Okay. To give you an indication of how this podcast works, if you are new here, we'd like to start out welcoming you.

Kalie: 04:08

Welcome. Thank

Josh: 04:09

you. That was probably very loud to the mic. Oh. And we we like to kind of fill you in on what's happening in the world of Expats Everywhere. We're Josh and Kaylee, 2 content creators that talk about living abroad.

Josh: 04:21

This specific podcast is more about Portugal. Although, today, we're talking more about Spain, because Spain and Portugal have been compared and contrasted recently. They're kind of going through similar stages of their, I don't know what you would call it. Bureaucratic development. Yeah.

Kalie: 04:39

Like a lot.

Josh: 04:40

For sure. So we're gonna touch on what's happening with the Golden Visa, with Sam, a a guy that works for an asset management company called Holborn, and they help people acquire Golden Visas. So he has his ear to the ground on what's happening both in Portugal and in Spain. Although, because of the news that broke October 8th, there's a lot to be said on what is going on in Spain in regards to golden visa by real estate investment.

Kalie: 05:09

Yes.

Josh: 05:09

Before we jump into that interview though, we wanna let you know what's happening in our world and over the weekend which is why we're recording this about a day or so late, but over the weekend, we were down in Lisbon and we woke up on Monday morning to go to our US Embassy appointment for our daughter, Valencia. That appointment went fairly well. And, we traveled back to to Porto yesterday. So we just got back in and are able to put this welcome together for you so that we can get you the podcast.

Kalie: 05:38

Yes. So for those of you with kids, just know that when you have to do a passport renewal for a minor, both parents have to go in person with your child, of course, to the embassy. If you, are an adult, then you can do it by mail in Portugal. So it's pretty easy pretty easy to do it by mail, but, you know, a little more involved with kids.

Josh: 05:58

Yes. And be prepared. If you have a right hand, you must raise it and attest to all the stuff that you've put on the application as being true.

Sam: 06:06

Yes. And I do all the paperwork. So Josh put his hand up like he knew what he was talking about.

Kalie: 06:10

I guess a lot of trust in me that

Sam: 06:13

I put the correct information.

Kalie: 06:15

So, yes, 4 to 6 weeks, and we should get it back in the mail. If you're in Lisbon, you can go pick it up, which I think I would rather do than having to do the mail thing Man. Just because of the envelope and stamps and all that stuff. But then also, they do require you to have a tracking number, which is good. But even still, when you have a tracking number, stuff with the the CTT Set the provide

Sam: 06:35

a tracking number for my residency card, and

Kalie: 06:37

I still had issues there. So Yeah. If you're in Lisbon, I would recommend going and getting it. But since we are not, we will have them mail it, and we'll track it that way.

Josh: 06:45

Yeah. It seems like with certified mail here, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can sign for you. And when I say Tom, Dick, or Harry, I mean, like, Joao, Julie, or Maria.

Kalie: 06:54

Which would be, like, neighbor doorman or cafe down the road? Facts. Yeah.

Josh: 07:01

Yeah. So yeah. So yeah. That that's a a slight difference. And maybe in your neck of the woods, wherever you're from, it's okay.

Josh: 07:09

But certainly, where we're from, you Pretty steady. Yeah. You have to no.

Sam: 07:11

I mean, in the US, you you you have to be the one

Josh: 07:11

to sign for the thing. Oh, right. Yeah. It's a lot

Kalie: 07:17

stricter. Right? Yeah. But here yeah. Our neighbor's gotten stuff for us and stuff.

Kalie: 07:21

It's fine. Have a make sure you just have a relationship with, yeah, with with your neighbors and your doorman if you have one and Yeah. And everything. But also over the weekend, we put out our video of Portugal versus Spain since we're talking a lot about Spain.

Sam: 07:31

Yeah.

Kalie: 07:31

A lot of comparisons. We compared Portugal and Italy before. Yep. Some topics that are really, informative, I guess.

Josh: 07:39

So yeah. Consider. Yeah. Exactly. So that you can make a decision on where might be best for you to move to because, you know, Portugal is not for everyone and Spain's not for everyone either.

Josh: 07:49

But there is a place out there for you and we're gonna try to help you find it.

Kalie: 07:52

Yep. Let's start comparing. So we did Portugal, Italy, and then this past weekend was Portugal and Spain, which again we've had a lot of interest in Spain and Portugal as well, but then there's a lot of changes going on in Spain. That's why it's good timing for us to get in in there and give you guys information on what's going on so that you can make an informed decision about where you wanna live.

Josh: 08:11

Yeah. Definitely. So that's kind of what's been happening on the main YouTube channel. The other channel is I'm about to start that video edit.

Kalie: 08:20

Let's get building.

Josh: 08:21

Let's get building, which is where we take you through our real estate journey. The last episode was about that. So last podcast episode. So if you haven't listened to last week's episode, you can catch up on that. But, yeah, we're ready to really get building on on that project, and that's very exciting.

Kalie: 08:39

Yes. Demo is in full swing. No pun intended.

Josh: 08:43

Yes. Because you swung something.

Kalie: 08:45

I did. There are pictures on the channel if you wanna see Let's Get Billing with Josh and Kaylee. But, yeah, last week was good because we could unpack the details a bit more, which is a little harder to do in video form on the channel. So on the podcast, it can be the longer format to talk a bit about what what it's like. Yeah.

Kalie: 08:59

So we've got that. And then this week, we have a meetup, and it's a holiday here in Portugal.

Josh: 09:04

Yes. So the holiday is the carn can't speak. The Carnation Revolution Day. Mhmm. And that is essentially a a commemoration of the peaceful passing of the the the government.

Josh: 09:20

Right? Like, there was a a coup, but Yeah. No bloodshed.

Kalie: 09:23

Right. Right. Only carnations. It's an interesting

Josh: 09:26

Carnations went into the the barrel of the, the guns.

Kalie: 09:30

The military yeah. The the military walking around with guns and no one shot, no one fired. They but they were handing out flowers. The people were handing out flowers.

Sam: 09:37

Yeah.

Kalie: 09:38

So it's an interesting history to look into. Yeah. And we are doing a meet up on that day. That is 25th.

Josh: 09:43

It is. I'll say where it is.

Kalie: 09:45

Yeah. Where is it at?

Josh: 09:45

Cafe Sauta at 6.

Kalie: 09:48

At 6. Yes. We'll be downstairs, and we're doing it in collaboration with Afpop. We did something with them last year for July 4th, and so the the head of the porter chapter, Jamie, asked if we wanna do something again, and so he chose the place which was good, Had met with the owner, and it's a it's a historic cafe, really. It's been renovated and everything, but, it's kinda nice to do it on 25th.

Kalie: 10:09

It's a typical Portuguese place. It's been around for a while in Porto for the holiday. Yeah. And then we'll be taking over the downstairs area. So come and join us.

Kalie: 10:17

Come and go as you please. 6 o'clock if you're in Porto on on Thursday, 25th.

Josh: 10:22

Yep. The last thing I wanna say has to do with football, or soccer depending on where you're from, what your lexicon is. We get this question a lot and just to let you know, we're coming to the end of the the Portuguese season. So if you're gonna be traveling in the next several weeks in Portugal and you're wanting to catch a match, see what city you're gonna be in and if there is a match with the home team. The matches will be the next, like, 4 weekends or so.

Josh: 10:52

And then after that is the big cup match, which is like the end of May. I believe I need to look up the exact date, but it's the end of May. And then on into like June July time, you're looking at the Euros. The Euros this year are gonna be held in Germany, but you'll be able to catch matches on TV at any cafe or bar while you are doing your summer travels throughout Portugal, and that should be a lot of fun. That's something that you should at least for, you know, 2, 3 hours pause and take that part of the culture in because football is a big, big part of the culture here.

Josh: 11:31

And you could have a lot of fun kind of seeing what Portuguese people get up to when big international matches happen.

Sam: 11:36

Yes. Just to clarify too for those

Kalie: 11:38

of you who aren't familiar, when we're talking about the season, it's the Portuguese season, so there's different clubs around in different cities. The Euros are countries.

Josh: 11:46

Yes.

Kalie: 11:46

So wherever you are in Portugal, you can support Portugal. Everyone will be watching and supporting Portugal as opposed to supporting their team from a city or from where they're from such as a Benfica, Porto, Sporting.

Josh: 11:57

Yes.

Kalie: 11:58

So everywhere in Portugal, everyone will be supporting Portugal because they'll be playing with, different European countries

Sam: 12:04

That's it.

Kalie: 12:05

Taking place in Germany. So it should be a lot of fun.

Josh: 12:07

Yep. And let's start talking about, Sam. Right?

Kalie: 12:11

Sam and

Producer Dan: 12:12

I love

Kalie: 12:12

that about Spain.

Josh: 12:13

And Spain.

Kalie: 12:14

Let's go. Let's do it.

Josh: 13:00

Alright, Sam. Welcome to the podcast. I'm really looking forward to diving in to talking about what has happened with the Spanish golden visa, how it could relate to what happened last year with Portugal's golden visa and just where we see this moving in the future. So first, can we clear up what's actually going on? Because there have been so many bad headlines in the news, since the news broke.

Josh: 13:24

I think it was April 8th, that Spain is getting rid of their golden visa. What can you tell us?

Sam: 13:30

Well, it's interesting terminology that because so far as we stand today, 17th April, nothing has actually happened. You know? There's been no changes whatsoever to the Spanish golden visa. All we've heard is that there is intent to change the Golden Visa. And a lot of the headlines have been Spain withdraws the Golden Visa program.

Sam: 13:50

That's not the case at all. What they're doing at the moment is kinda dissecting it and seeing what the effect is on the house prices and and various other economic measures as to what they are gonna do moving forward. But as we stand today, we don't know much further than what, you know, what measures they're gonna take. Okay.

Josh: 14:12

And do you have any idea of why they're looking at redoing the golden visa or or making these possible changes?

Sam: 14:20

Yeah. I mean, this is the this is a difficult one really to to take in because Spain is sort of following Portugal last year where Portugal reviewed their own visa program. They withdrew property as being an option, And, and the, the, the, the idea behind that was that, house prices were increasing. It was making difficult for people to get onto a housing ladder, etcetera, etcetera. So Spain, they've got a new government come in.

Sam: 14:43

They've kinda done the same thing. They're looking at, you know, economical factors in Spain, one of which is is unaffordable housing in certain areas, and they're looking at measures that they can address this. So their view is to the golden visa program, as it gets money coming in for property, it can arguably inflate house prices. However, where is this sort of a, a contentious issue, if you like, is that when you see the overall amount of Golden Visa applications through property Yeah. It's quite hard to see how that can affect the the house prices because they they sort of estimate around 0.25 to 0.5 applications of housing may have a golden visa attached to them.

Sam: 15:28

So if you look at that in in the sort of terms of what effect that could actually have on the housing market, it's very difficult to model your point that it's really having any substantial effect on the market at all. And at the moment, the the Spain, the Spanish government are really just in a reviews a review situation where they're having a look and seeing, well, what can we do? What effect is it having? And I suppose to some degree, they might sit down and look at this and think, well, actually, they don't need to make as drastic changes as what, you know, as Pathet Sheer has been saying in in the headlines in the papers.

Josh: 16:00

Okay. And do you have any indication of when they need to make this decision or when they want to make this decision by? I assume that on a weekly basis, they have meetings. But is there a certain date when they need to vote to have this done?

Sam: 16:13

No. We we haven't heard of any deadlines being in whatsoever yet. They will have regular meetings. So the likelihood is, you know, at some point, they are gonna address this, but I don't think they're gonna do a knee jerk reaction and suddenly just say, right. It's gone for for property as of next week.

Sam: 16:29

I think it's gonna be a longer process. I was speaking to our real estate team here, Holborn, and that they think and, again, this is very much noted at at this point, that it's gonna be between 6 months a year potentially to carry on as we are. But that again is almost looking at Portugal as a model, what happened in Portugal last year. And that actually helps us to kind of guide what potentially grew up in Spain.

Josh: 16:55

Okay. This is exactly what I wanted to ask you next. How did Portugal's, let's say, pull back of their golden visa by real estate investment shakeout?

Sam: 17:06

Since it's interesting this as well, I mean, this is is something to to think of as well when we look at what Spain are gonna do. So then you look at Portugal. Then Portugal bond visa was introduced around 11, 12 years ago. Since its inception, it's had a number of changes. So for example, the amount you could invest into property had changed to be 180,000 to 500,000.

Sam: 17:29

We had there were particular locations you could and couldn't invest in to get a golden visa in Portugal. Now Manchester in Spain has had no changes to its golden visa program since it started in 2013. So it's it's largely remained completely unchanged over that period of time. So the where I'm going with that is you think, well, what Spain might do is just do a a change, similar to what Portugal did a number of times during their program before, you know, instead of withdrawing it completely. But if we if we went down the worst case scenario, so for example, what happened in Portugal Portugal last year and you used the same timeline, it was around February or March last year that Portugal announced property was gonna be drawn.

Sam: 18:15

And it was around September, October when it fully came in and the last applications went in. So it gave a relatively long period of time, and we suspect it would so it'd be slightly slower in Spain if you live here or you know, Spain tends to be a little bit slower in certain things. So we think it might take even longer than that. So that's where we're getting this the idea of 6 months to a year from from that sort of estimation with Portugal.

Josh: 18:43

What did you happen to see during let let's say speaking specifically about Portugal, what did you happen to see during that time period 2 golden visa applications for real estate investment or actually it was for yeah. For kind of all.

Sam: 18:59

Yeah. All of us. It was, it was essentially a huge, huge, huge uplift. We, we, as a company, I mean, it just, it just went crazy. So for veterans and math, we we always did a lot of, Portuguese Golden Visas.

Sam: 19:12

But that number stood at triple quadrupled, and and everybody just put their application in. And actually, everybody that did put their application in towards the beginning of that period of time. People that apply March, April, May were able to get their their application through the real estate through in time for for the cutoff. So what we anticipate with Spain, and we're already seeing it since last week, is this absolutely huge increase in people now thinking, well, I've got to do something. So we know this is gonna happen.

Sam: 19:40

It's already started to happen. People are looking to do it now because we feel as company that will most definitely be time to get this all through before the cutoff. And one of the the the beauties really, the Spanish golden visa program is you don't have to be, spending any time in the country in Spain to have the golden visa. So people, even if they initially were to figure along, not gonna move over till 3 or 4 years' time, you could start the process now, get the asset under the old well, could be the old res you know, property, qualification, and actually get the gold visa and then not move over here for 3 years, and they can actually do that. So this is what we're gonna see happening.

Sam: 20:19

We already see it happening, and there's just gonna be a huge increase in in the the golden, gulf visa applications and and inquiries.

Josh: 20:27

Okay. So, essentially, it's it's kind of created a a bit of a rush, if you will. Yeah. And what are you seeing right now with Portugal's Gold and Visa applications? Have those remained steady compared to last year?

Josh: 20:39

Have they dropped off because property, is no longer an option?

Sam: 20:43

Yeah. It's it's been a relatively large drop off. There's still interest in Portugal because Portugal still has, some very unique benefits in terms of getting the passport in 5 years, you know, with minimal stay requirements. It's very popular. So there's always gonna be an interest in Portugal.

Sam: 20:59

But the interest is obviously less than it was last year. And I say quite considerably, but obviously last year was inflated because we suddenly had that influx of people. But if you maybe compare it to the year before last in Portugal, it's a little bit less, but not drastically. But the difference potentially, Portugal and Spain, is Portugal have always had the option of investing into investment funds for 500,000, which is the same qualification point as the real estate. So they're both 500,000.

Sam: 21:30

So obviously, okay, people might prefer real estate, but they still have the equivalent option in a fund for 500,000. So it still costs them the same. With Spain, we was really awaiting to see what they do because the alternatives outside of property could mean a 1,000,000 investment into, into a fund or or a 2,000,000 investment into government bonds, and that's a lot higher. Huge. That's unaffordable.

Sam: 21:54

Huge. So this is why I believe, I don't wanna speak too soon on this, it could be very difficult for them to just completely remove the 500,000 option with no alternative, whether that be a fund or whether it be certain real estate, either it be commercial as opposed to residential. We don't know how they're gonna treat it, and I would think they would have to because it's it can't mirror what happened in Portugal just because of the difference on the amounts.

Josh: 22:19

Okay. And to give the listener a little bit of background, in February, my wife and I came down to the south of Spain to meet up with you and your wife and talk to to you and your team about what was going on with, the Spanish golden visa, the Portuguese golden visa before any of this news broke. And then we also talked about the top 5 golden visas in the world, as Holborn Asset sees it. And we've released one of the videos. I think many followers of the channel have have likely seen that video as it's performing really well, where you made the prediction that the Spanish golden visa will crush the Portuguese golden visa.

Josh: 22:56

And it's something that I believe just kind of looking at the numbers, looking at what the data says. And, honestly, I don't think that this news that broke on on April 8th changes any of that. If anything, it reinforces that in 2024, which is the context that we gave for the videos that it's believed that the Spanish golden visa will way way outperform the Portuguese in 2024. And with this kind of rush on the golden visa in Spain, it seems like that's gonna happen. But one question that I kept getting in the comment section of that video was, did Holborn have any indication that Spain was going to be changing the laws?

Josh: 23:36

Was there any type of word?

Sam: 23:40

No. It's a very good question is because you always think, well, we know as a as a financial services company, we know how long time we, you know, we know a lot what's going on. But no. But it's a simple answer. It's no.

Sam: 23:50

I I've done numerous weapon hours, which I do on the Spanish Golden Visa. I do once or twice a month in the company and, you know, to talk about Spanish Golden Visa, what it does, how it works. And then pretty much everyone in their videos always say, well, we know it's not gonna be here for very long. You know? Maybe the next year or so, they're gonna look at it.

Sam: 24:07

And we've we've kinda done that for the last 6, 7 months. And and, obviously, it has come to the point where that's actually happened, you know. And and did we think it would be as soon as this? Probably not. I think unofficially, I was thinking it'd be more towards the end of the year beginning of next.

Sam: 24:21

But exactly the point you made is that, if anything, this is gonna mean a massive increase in the Spanish gold visa this year. It it simply will the the the Spain gold visa will outvote the Portuguese gold visa this year, provided we suddenly just pull down the hatches immediately and say it's gone, which is very unlikely because they'd have to phone through the kind of emergency measure, which would never happen because it's not that, you know, serious a topic, if you like. So So it will it will it will it will, you know, as we say, it will crush the quarter keys of this year. And then I suppose it's the longevity on that into next year or year after is the hand really on what the what the new rules end up

Josh: 24:58

being. Okay. Do you think that there's something maybe behind kind of the the political curtain going on in in so much that we discussed it well under 1% of real estate transactions during the period where this golden visa has existed have been for real estate purchases. So let me say it a different way out of all the real estate purchases that have happened in Spain during the period where the golden visa by real estate investment has existed, under 1% have been for a a golden visa. We know that that's not going to make a massive impact on a housing market.

Josh: 25:41

It just simply can't. When 99% of other transactions are just happening as they would as people value properties. So do you think that it they're possibly trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and and make a kind of a political stance, or is it possibly due to security risks, but they're just saying it's this other thing, this other reason why they wanna do this change.

Sam: 26:06

It's most definitely, you don't have to be a a, you know, economist to know that when you look at the figures and the the the, you know, what's correlated in terms of the Spanish goal of reading into real estate, the measure they're taking will will it it's a drop in the ocean. It simply doesn't add up as a measure that's been taken as a genuine attempt, in my opinion, that is gonna have any effect on the housing market. It it won't happen. It it the way I spoke about it certainly over the last 5 or 6 months is that we knew there was a changes to the Spanish government. We knew, obviously, there was a change in in the parties, how it was being run.

Sam: 26:43

So to the eyes, to some degree, had been off the golden visa scheme. People haven't really been focusing on it. And we kinda knew once the new government was there, and it settled in, that it's basically a headline grabber. You know? And then it's certainly part of the headlines.

Sam: 26:57

You know? Spain scuba rubies, gold visa program. Spain's gonna to to, you know, help people get on a housing ladder. It's just a new government coming in, in my opinion, and and doing that as a way of really just headline news is that we are doing something. Whether there's any other motivation behind it could potentially, you know, could potentially be the case.

Sam: 27:17

I mean, it could Or better. Could be lots of different reasons. But I certainly think, as you say, the the nuggets just don't quite stack up. And then, obviously, which we've done, more into the numbers over the last week. And you think, oh, guys, if anyone sits and looks at these numbers, it would be incredibly difficult to justify to removing property.

Sam: 27:36

Because if anything, it's gonna have more than negative effects on on the other, affluent industries within Spain by removing it. You know? That's simple. Yeah. More of that point will affect than than than keeping it.

Sam: 27:48

So, yeah, it's it's it it was your mind feeling. But

Josh: 27:53

Okay. And in terms of public perception, what do what do people in Spain think about the golden visa? And I'm I'm talking about Spaniards. I mean, I don't read much Spanish news or headlines. So I'm wondering if, if like in Portugal, where there there is an a group of people, I guess, that have really kind of gone after golden visas have gone after the fact that, real estate prices, and and affordable housing real estate prices have gone up, affordable housing's becoming scarce.

Josh: 28:25

So they've kind of attacked that as, as a political putting political pressure in that direction. Is the same happening in Spain or people pointing their finger at the golden visa as it being a problem that needs to be fixed immediately?

Sam: 28:39

I I think there's always been murmurings that the gold business really looks at. And and I don't know just simply because you're you're you're attracting large purchases, 500,000 plus purchases. And and, you know, and and there are some people just don't like the new money coming in like that from outside of the country. But I I don't think from living here, and I've lived here for 6 years, there's there's and and in the whole for the whole situation I've been here, I've never heard any any sort of negative news particularly in the papers or or or speaking to people of the Spanish colonies. It's never really been taught in people's minds.

Sam: 29:13

In fact, a lot of people don't really particularly know if it's exist could save a lot of respect. You know? It's only really since it's made the headlines, it will kind of where it's there. Of course, people do know about it. And I, would say that majority of people you spoke to, probably 80, 90%, prior to this headline, probably didn't even know that you could do that to get a Gong Visa anyway.

Sam: 29:33

So, again,

Josh: 29:34

it's Interesting.

Sam: 29:35

Yeah. Yeah. So, again, it's just how things are positioned, isn't it? It's like any any government or any economy. It's how you it's the reasons behind it.

Sam: 29:43

A little bit But, yeah, there's there's never been any big big problem with it from from people living here as far as I've ever come across in the the 6 years I've been here.

Josh: 29:51

Okay. Interesting. I mean, me personally, like, going out on the streets here in Portugal, I don't hear it. It's not something that comes up in in conversation at all, when I'm talking to Portuguese people. However, you do see in the news that there are protests or this, that, or the other.

Josh: 30:07

Yeah. But, again, like you like you mentioned earlier, those are headline grabbing moments and and things that the media can latch onto.

Sam: 30:15

And, yeah, do you think as well, you know, at a point now where the government are gonna be looking into the figures, because they now have to come up with a a solution, if you like, for what they're gonna do. These figures now are gonna be looked into by, you know, people living in Spain, Spanish people, or whoever it may be living in Spain. We'll look at these figures. And even maybe now, I'll look at them and say, well, it doesn't quite add up because if you do the if you're thinking it's, you know, again, it can be part of exactly. But if you're saying it's 0.25% of people buying a property is linked to a Golden Visa, It's really difficult to argue that that's gonna make any difference.

Sam: 30:47

So I think after they look at these details, I'm gonna say, yes. But what else are you doing? Because that's really not gonna do anything. You know? So I'm just thinking it's it's got the headlights, but but it that's it's not gonna do more than that.

Sam: 30:57

It's like, this is why I think it might not be as a I've got to be careful to say stuff too early, but it might not be as bigger

Josh: 31:13

Interesting. Yeah, I saw whenever, whenever Portugal was going through theirs, one of the things that was said, and I'm trying to think of, of which politicians said it. It might, it might've been the prime minister. He said that basically they got to a point where the golden visa had, had done its job in terms of bringing in a certain amount of of money, however many billions it was in investments. And I thought, what that point, a statement like that is it's very up for interpretation in terms of, like, the people behind the curtain can decide whatever like done its job means.

Josh: 31:55

But we can't argue that. Whereas if you say like, well, it's really affecting housing prices, but then we can all read, okay, it's only 0.25%. It's like, how is that actually affecting housing prices? Okay. I wanna switch gears and ask you then, what are some some great places that people should look at in Spain to invest, while the window is still open?

Sam: 32:18

So we don't know, obviously, what the changes are gonna be, whether it's gonna affect particular areas. And, you know, what what we do as a company because, obviously, as it stands at the moment, as if anybody that doesn't, you you could spend 500,000 on any kind of real estate. So whether that's land, best schedule real estate, commercial real estate. You you can spend 500,000 on anything. You qualify for the gold lease.

Sam: 32:41

As a company, we tend to focus, more on commercial assets. And the reason that we do this is that commercial assets attract lower tax. So, for example, if you're buying a residential house for £500 in, let's say, Valencia or somewhere, MICE in in Spain, then your taxes on that could be around 10%, 10, 11%. So 50. Transfer taxes, let's say, it could be 50, 55, or 60,000, whatever it may be.

Sam: 33:09

Invest in commercial real estate, well, that has a lot less. The transfer taxes are about 1 a half percent. So in Paris, you're paying a lot, lot, lot, lot less, about 40,000 less in taxes. So when when you mentioned about opportunities, when you're talking about residential opportunities, we we all say that if you know you're gonna move to Spain and live somewhere, and that's where you want to live, then that's fine. You know, you buy that asset because you wanna live there.

Sam: 33:34

Correct. Right. So If you're in that position, you're right. Well, I'm not gonna be living for a couple of years. I want to get the golden visa or, you know, I don't know where I'm gonna live.

Sam: 33:43

I'm moving over here now. I don't know what to be where I want to be. And we can always say, look at commercial assets, because companies like ourselves, we can manage that asset for you. You still need to get involved in any of it. But the actual cost to you is around 50,000 less, more if you buy the residential.

Sam: 33:58

And then, ultimately, when you decide where you want to live in your own here, you can sell that asset. You can then buy the asset that you're gonna live in and let that stand. So when we're looking at commercial assets and opportunities, we tend to focus on Madrid, Barcelona, mainly for very obvious reasons. He's got very high salons varies. He's got very high rental yields.

Sam: 34:17

So you know you're sort of safe and secure with them areas. But in terms of residential, Spain's a little bit of a you gotta be very careful with Spain because I I'm up for the UK, and the UK property market tends to be relatively stable. Madrid. It's always gonna do well on markets. But, obviously, some of the smaller seaside towns can, you know, can have house prices going down.

Sam: 34:45

So you have to you have to do a lot of research and be very careful when you're looking to the residential side of things. And, ultimately, because it was I think we set it for it. It comes down to where you wanna live, really. If you know where you wanna live, then ultimately you're gonna stay there. Then, you know, it doesn't matter too much.

Sam: 34:58

But, yeah, majority of Barcelona, particularly for commercial. And commercial is a certain way to look for people who are looking to get the Golden Visa that may be not be fully living in a place they want to live in immediately. That's certainly a way to to to look at it.

Josh: 35:13

Do you have the figures on how many people have done, residential transactions versus commercial transactions?

Sam: 35:21

No. And this is did we try and find this? So so as a company, we as I say, we would do mainly always commercial. But I think you'll find a vast majority is for residential. And I don't know the figures on that, but that would surely be because a lot of people are buying the second home that they're gonna have as a holiday home or, you know, yeah, or they're gonna move over here and live in that asset.

Sam: 35:41

So that's gonna be more, obviously, more popular, if you like, than commercial or something like that. So I'd say the vast majority when we're talking of of of purchases, it are gonna be on residential. It's just, do the law of people don't think of the commercial option, and the commercial option, as I say, has a lot of advantages. No. And and it's funny this because when we were doing Portugal, Portugal, gold coins, they certainly start with the majority.

Sam: 36:04

And and Greece, which is how the gold visa is very popular. We have yours at the Resdeja properties, but particularly Spain. Spain is one where you have to be careful of taxation in Spain. We're not tax advice, but you have to be careful as as it owes anywhere, but particularly in Spain. And it can make a massive difference on particularly assets that you buy.

Sam: 36:22

And for us, it's very important to make sure not only is someone getting a golden visa, but they're actually getting a very good investment as well. And that's what you we've gotta be careful of.

Josh: 36:32

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you bringing that up because, I mean, in my mind, it's like, if there's a 1 to 2 or a couple percent variance between the tax rate of a commercial and a residential, okay, you could probably make that up in terms of the appreciation of your asset on the residential side. But when you're talking like 10%, like, come on. That's a huge difference.

Sam: 36:53

It's huge. And we will see if you could have paid 10% and then ultimately get someone's payment, then 6 month later, okay. I don't wanna be there now. I'm gonna sell that house. I'm not gonna move it to pay what if you've 40, 50, 60 barrels worth.

Sam: 37:04

It's just not worth doing. It's like we're running at your cost. Yeah. Exactly. And then without going into too much detail.

Sam: 37:10

Certainly, ongoing cost for residential can be quite expensive as well. When you rent out a residential property in Spain, Airbnb, they are taxed a lot more heavily, and the rental yields tend to be lower than commercial. So there there's a number of other reasons a lot along it. But, yeah, it's just for people to think of it. It's certainly commercial option, as I say, certainly something to look at.

Sam: 37:29

But, of course, we don't know what the changes are gonna be because the changes could be that they they remove residential. And they said there's no issue with commercial. Because Commercial, when we think about it, is is helping business. And and soon, yeah, what way they're gonna do it is difficult to know. But that that would make some sense to a degree.

Josh: 37:44

Which in a way, it's like, okay, helping business and boost the economy. Isn't that the point of a of a golden visa in the first place?

Sam: 37:51

Right. I just thought so.

Josh: 37:52

Yeah. So you you, you brought something to mind for me when you you mentioned about the cost for residential upkeep and like rent or turnover, whatever. Squatters are a problem in Spain, because there are there are laws that kind of protect them. So that would actually point towards commercial being better because I would assume it'd be much more difficult to squat in a commercial spot.

Sam: 38:22

And you are spot on. Yeah. You don't wanna be squatted in the shop window, for example. So, no, you're absolutely right. So, no, you are smart.

Sam: 38:28

It's funny this because I I had a meeting a couple of weeks ago with, with one of the senior managers, at Capito. He was talking about the golden the golden visa, and he said exactly the same point issue. In Spain, and and anybody knows anything about Spanish law, the the the the idea of getting squatters in is a it's everybody's nightmare. And, obviously, if you're on a second front of you, it's empty, then you're always gonna have that danger. You're absolutely right.

Sam: 38:53

He said his reason wasn't the declaration to go to commercial. His reason to go to commercial as opposed to residential was to do with protecting the from the squatters. Because unless you do it, you live in there all the time, you know, if you're really empty, you've you've I thought, I never thought of it like that, but it's absolutely spot on. So it's another reason that commercial, you can let it run and not have that worry that you're gonna get as hot as in. You know?

Sam: 39:14

And if you haven't fully managed, you don't have anything to do with it, you can essentially get out of commercial asset as a holding asset. So if that was it's all for 500,000, it's always you keep that asset. You've got someone managing it for you, doing your tax returns, all that sort of thing. You don't have to worry about it. In the meantime, you've got the Golden Visa.

Sam: 39:31

At any point, you don't wanna sell it somewhere. You just sell your asset, buy the reschedule, and it's continuously earning, say, over 5, 500,000. And it is worthwhile. I think of it. It's worth saying in this point as well.

Sam: 39:43

For anyone who has already got a golden visa or does get a golden visa in this period of time that we have now, the way Spanish law works is they wouldn't be able to retrospectively take it off you once you have it. Okay. We had this with Portugal. So you could still carry on that when you're in it in 5 years. It won't suddenly be on there.

Sam: 40:01

You can't do that anymore. So if anybody looking to get in, there was a lot of good reasons to get in because it's written in Spanish law that they couldn't then take it off you once you already done it.

Josh: 40:11

Okay. Thank you for bringing that up. That's an excellent point. I think people would be upset if I didn't ask you what are the types of returns that people could look at on the residential and commercial side?

Sam: 40:22

Yeah. So residential in terms of returns on rental income, what if you go down or taxes paid? They're probably gonna be at a region of 1 and a half, 2%. This is net disaster costs on a residential. Can be So that depends on on the area.

Sam: 40:36

On commercial, net, after all, tax is probably around 4%. For well, it can be as high as 6%. It depends on what the where we do, what licensing it has. What we do as well, and I will say at this point, only if Keesett does help any of you is that because of the the higher entry point on commercial of 500,000 residential, they're asking, which we do it. I I don't know if other people do it.

Sam: 40:59

Wayne can actually do it for as little as 350,000, but it's embedded in campaign upfront. So instead of having that rent income on a long run basis, there are certain ways you could do it. You can have that paid up front. So you initially invest less. So for example, 350,000.

Sam: 41:14

Get less than you can pay it upfront. And then that gets you to 500,000 for less money. So there's ways of doing the return upfront. It's a little bit more complicated, and, obviously, it's worth chatting in more detail of that that interest anyone. But generally speaking, residential tends to be a little bit less.

Sam: 41:30

You know? So so you wouldn't have to extend that to where you've taken all the taxes off, all the costs, everything. And let's say residential, probably 4 or 5% around my figure once you're taking anything off.

Josh: 41:41

And then asset appreciation over, like, over the years, so it'd be a little better for residential than commercial?

Sam: 41:48

I do know. I that that's probably one that it don't know if it's gonna it's gonna depend very much on the area where you are going. And, for example, the type of business. It's partly why we if we look at commercial, we look at we treat it by side. We could Yeah.

Sam: 42:00

That could be Strong. You did. Stop. You you know what it's gonna be worth in 10 years. You buy that 500,000.

Sam: 42:06

Now, you know, in 10 years' time, it's barring any huge disasters, it's gonna be worth a lot more than that, 500,000, sorry, in 10 years' time than the 500,000. So yeah. But it depends on the area. You know, certain areas in Spain are upcoming. So I'm sure people would be who watch a lot of TV and photos like I watch where people are moving to the sun, you know, in Spain or Portugal.

Sam: 42:27

And there's always upcoming areas. If you could come online from finance, there's certainly gonna be areas where, from residential point of view, you you can you can find some good investments out there as well. But when it's commercial, you need to be looking at very big cities, big towns, you know, like saying, you're interested in new pass loans.

Josh: 42:45

Okay. Sam, if somebody's interested in learning more or they're ready to act, what should they do now?

Sam: 42:51

We'd definitely make contact with us, because as a government what what we do know I mean, obviously, nobody knows what's gonna happen. But what we do know is there is gonna be time the time ish thing now. Not not the timing issue. We we we strongly believe anything that we go we're looking at now, we'll have every task going through. And we'll monitor as we go through the process what's happening.

Sam: 43:09

But we're we're just looking at what happened in Portugal and the way the Spanish government works. And if you are interested in doing it, even if you were holding off a little bit, speak now because I think if you're gonna leave it 6 months, it could well read, depending on what the changes are, too late. So just to be absolute advice now, more so than ever, is to have a consultation. We don't we do a free consultation speech. We all help you understand the situation, what you can do, what you can't do.

Sam: 43:35

Obviously, it could be to help we can help them through that process. But you need to be doing it now because we have this for the quarter school while we still have some people holding off. And they thought we'd just hold off and hold off, and they were the only ones that became a problem towards the end. They just left it a little bit too late. So Yeah.

Sam: 43:48

Because you have to know minimum staying requirements in staying, because you have the luxury of that, it keep you can bring forward your plans because you don't, let's say, need to move over here any any any earlier. And that's why I think it makes sense to have that that consultation. Obviously, if it's not for you now, it doesn't it doesn't suit you, then you don't do it. At least you'll you'll understand, you know, what the process is and whether it's an option or not.

Josh: 44:14

Okay. Awesome. Sam, thank you so much. We're going to put your contact information in the show notes in the description section and let people go ahead and reach out to you if they're interested in learning more about either the Spanish Golden Visa options or the Portuguese Golden Visa options. Sound good?

Josh: 44:31

Perfect.

Sam: 44:31

Sounds like so good. We're happy to help everyone. No worries, Don. Appreciate it. For having me.

Josh: 44:36

Thank you.